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and i would like to know what you all think of this.
A perfect God
What did God do during that eternity before he created everything? If God was all that existed back before the universe was created, what disturbed the eternal equilibrium and compelled him to create? Was he bored? Was he lonely? Did he some how need to create? God is supposed to be perfect. If something is perfect, it is complete--it needs nothing else to be perfect.. We humans engage in activities because we are pursuing that elusive perfection, because there is disequilibrium caused by a difference between what we are and what we want to be. If God is perfect, there can be no disequilibrium. There is nothing he needs, nothing he wants or needs, and nothing he must or will do. A God who is perfect does nothing except exist. A perfect creator God is impossible.
But, for the sake of argument, let's carry on with this chain of thought. Let us suppose that this perfect God did create the universe. Humans were the crown jewels of his creation, since they were created in God's image and have the ability to make decisions with their gift of free will. However, these humans spoiled the original perfection by choosing to disobey God.
If something is perfect, nothing imperfect can come from it as that would be a contradiction. Someone once said that bad fruit cannot come from a good tree, and yet this "perfect" God created a "perfect" universe which was rendered imperfect by the "perfect" humans. The ultimate source of imperfection stems right back to God. What is perfect cannot become imperfect, so humans must have been created imperfect. What is perfect cannot create anything imperfect, so God must be imperfect to have created these imperfect humans. A perfect God who creates imperfect humans is impossible.
The Christians' counter to this argument involves freewill. They say that a being must have freewill to be happy. The omnibenevolent God did not wish to create robots, so he gave humans freewill to enable them to experience love and happiness. However the humans used this freewill to choose evil, that caused imperfection into God's originally perfect universe. God had no control over this decision, so the blame for our imperfect universe is on the humans, not God.
Here is why i find the argument weak. First, if God is omnipotent, then the assumption that freewill is necessary for happiness is false. If God could make it a rule that only beings with freewill may experience happiness, then he could just as easily have made it a rule that only robots may experience happiness. The latter option is clearly superior, since perfect robots will never make decisions which could render them or their creator unhappy, whereas beings with freewill could. A perfect and omnipotent God who creates beings capable of ruining their own happiness is impossible.
Second, even if we were to allow the necessity of freewill for happiness, God could have created humans with freewill who did not have the ability to choose evil, but only to choose between several good options.
Third, God supposedly has freewill, and yet he does not make imperfect decisions. If humans are miniature images of God, our decisions should likewise be perfect. Also, the occupants of heaven, who presumably must have freewill to be happy, will never use that freewill to make imperfect decisions. Why would the originally perfect humans do differently? following this line of reasoning leads us to the conclusion that we humans were created imperfect because of the decision to make us in the firsts place.
The point still stands: the presence of imperfections in the universe disproves the supposed perfection of its creator.
God is omniscient. When he created the universe with the humans as its crown, he saw the sufferings which these humans would endure as a result of the sin of those original humans(Adam and Eve). He heard the screams of the damned and scorned. Surely he would have known that it would have been better for those humans to never have been born (in fact, the Bible says this very thing), and surely this all-compassionate deity would have foregone the creation of a universe destined to imperfection in which many of the humans were doomed to eternal suffering. A perfectly compassionate being who creates beings which he knows are doomed to suffer is impossible.
God is perfectly just, and yet he sentences the imperfect humans he created to infinite suffering in hell for finite sins. Clearly, a limited offense does not warrant unlimited punishment, we do not accept this in modern society, and it goes against logic. God's sentencing of the imperfect humans to an eternity in hell for a mere mortal lifetime of sin is infinitely more unjust than this punishment. The absurd injustice of this infinite punishment is even greater when we consider that the ultimate source of all human imperfection is the God who created them. A perfectly just God who sentences his imperfect creation to infinite punishment for finite sins is impossible.
Consider all of the people who live in the remote regions of the world who have never even heard the "gospel" of Jesus Christ. Consider the people who have naturally adhered to the religion of their parents and nation as they had been taught to do since birth. If we are to believe the Christians, all of these people will perish in the eternal fire and damnation for not believing in Jesus Christ. It does not matter how just, kind, and generous they have been with their fellow humans during their lifetime: if they do not accept the gospel of Jesus, they are condemned to eternal torment. No just God would ever judge a man by his beliefs rather than his actions.
okay as i said, this is just some thoughts i have been musing on for a while, i would like to know what you think..
as i said at the start of this post, this NOT what i believe but they are still my thoughts.
at this moment in time i am agnostic, but sampling the ideas in religion, there are facts in it that i find disturbing and questionable. the above is a prime example of this.
and i just want to add this. Every human has faith in something, because it fills a gap in our understanding of existence that nothing else can.
Atheists claim to have faith in logic, although logic itself would favor creationism.
As our scientific understanding goes, in order for something to exist, it has to be created.
So who created this creator (god)?
Probability, which is mathematical and logical, would favor that it is much more likely that a single being --that just always -was- outside of our understanding of existence -- created all of what we know to exist, rather than everything creating or being infinite itself.
okay guys. discuss.
lol that was interesting!
ReplyDeleteI think as far as religion goes its pretty much all false. We have so many different religions on this planet its just ridiculous. I can see the need for people to believe in something like religion but if a 'God' made this planet with all the suffering that we have, I don't see what is so amazing about him. He/she would be no better than us just much more powerful. I cannot place my belief in something which does not have much factual evidence or proof or anything. Religion itself has created so much pain, suffering and death in itself that in puts me off believing in something so flawed as that. I mean we had the crusades - suicide bombers - burnings, and just wars based on religious beliefs. I can't believe that a God that is professed to be perfect would tell its followers to kill opposition and incite terror into innocents.
ReplyDeleteMaybe there is a 'Godlike' being out or outside of the universe but by no means is it perfect if it has created this universe or world. And as for creating us in gods image seems very strange. Maybe we were created in his very basic image given similar shape, maybe similar potential in our brains but since we only use a small percentage of our brainpower maybe we have yet to unlock our full potential.
But as I personally see this planet I base my 'belief' much more in science most likely because it seems much more believable and to be honest more interesting than throwing my self over to a possible fictional being.
"There is nothing he needs, nothing he desires, and nothing he must or will do. A God who is perfect does nothing except exist. A perfect creator God is impossible."
ReplyDeleteWhile it's true that God, triune in nature, is lacking nothing in terms of community. He needs no one to fulfill Him in His perfection, and He needs no one to keep Him company. But that in no way means He cannot desire something. Do you need the albums you buy at the record store? Of course not. But you do desire them. Desire is not related to need. Need is related to need.
"What is perfect cannot create anything imperfect, so God must be imperfect to have created these imperfect humans. A perfect God who creates imperfect humans is impossible."
This is another false assumption. According the the Bible, evil existed before Eden. Evil was born in the heart of an angel, and that fallen angel deceived the first humans into sinning by disobeying God's commands. I believe most Christian theologians use the term "innocent" rather than "perfect" when speaking of the first humans.
"The latter option is clearly superior, since perfect robots will never make decisions which could render them or their creator unhappy, whereas beings with freewill could."
If you force someone to love you, it means nothing when compared to love that flows freely without coercion or force. I believe God wants us to love Him because we recognize His love for us, displayed in the fact that He desired us and created us when He had no need of us.
"Also, the occupants of heaven, who presumably must have freewill to be happy, will never use that freewill to make imperfect decisions."
This is not true, since evil is the product of an angel who traded God's will for his own (see Isaiah 14:12-16).
"God's sentencing of the imperfect humans to an eternity in hell for a mere mortal lifetime of sin is infinitely more unjust than this punishment."
In Romans 9, the writer, Paul, asks the rhetorical question (which I will paraphrase), "What right has the clay to ask the potter why he made it this way or that way? If God created some vessels for honor and some for destruction, what business is that of yours?"
The Bible is also full of verses which teach that God is not willing that any should perish but that all would come to repentance. The Bible also says that whoever comes to Him through faith in Christ will be saved from the effects of sin. Knowing this, we must conclude that God would prefer all people choose to love Him and obey Him, coming to Him the way He prescribed--which is through faith in Jesus Christ, His Son, whose death and resurrection rendered sin and death impotent. Again, it boils down to a loving God desiring (not needing) His creation to love Him in return.
"It does not matter how just, kind, and generous they have been with their fellow humans during their lifetime: if they do not accept the gospel of Jesus, they are condemned. No just God would ever judge a man by his beliefs rather than his actions."
ReplyDeleteThe Bible teaches that the only punishment befitting the crime of sin is death. Without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sins (Hebrews 9). Jesus came from Heaven as the only perfect sacrfice for sin. His death secured eternal forgiveness for those who would, by faith, believe so. Simply being good does not atone for sin, because sin can only be paid for through death. No sorrow, no pennance can pay for sin. Only death. Our death or Christ's death. This is the clear teaching of the Bible.
I understand these things may contradict reson or logic; they may be "radical" or "potentially disturbing"; but these are the orthodox Christian teachings on these subjects. I know this was long as well, but I wanted to highlight a few of the points where the logic presented proved faulty--at least insofar as it proved faulty in refuting Christianity or the God of Christianity. And thanks so much for allowing me this forum to share my side of the story for your thoughts and the thought of all others who might read this.
This is great!
ReplyDelete